Multiple H1 tags are OK according to developer. I have my doubts. Please advise...

[McTaggart]

Hi,

My very well known and widely respected developer is using multiple H1 tags I see - they like using them in their code and they argue multiple H1s conform with HTML5 standards. They are resisting a recode to one H1 tag per page.

However, I know this is clearly an issue in Bing, so I don't want to risk it with Google. Any thoughts on whether it's best to avoid multiple H1 tags in Google (any evidence and reasoning would be great - I can then put that to my developer...)

Many thanks for your help, Luke

[AWCthreads]

I understand. Good reminder.

[randfish]

Hi AWC - this is tangential to the topic, but important for Q+A and Moz community participation in general.

Please, in the future, work to be as generous and empathetic in replies as possible. This community is meant to be a haven from many of the nastier corners of the web and while your comment was not excessively insulting, it wasn't kind either. Contributions both big and small are welcome here, as are opinions.

If we're going to maintain the amazing community here, we have to be mindful about the impacts of negativity. Thanks for understanding.

[Dr-Pete]

I think Ryan's point about HTML5 is good to keep in mind, but the problem is that we don't have any great guidance on what Google thinks about HTML5 right now, at least at this level of detail. They're waiting for the standard to evolve into common practice, just like the rest of us. I suspect, though, that if HTML5 is changing the rules, they may scale back their judgment.

[Dr-Pete]

To be fair, how do you know that they're "spammy", "abusive", or "irrelevant"? I've seen people just use them badly - for example, for CSS styling. Is it a best practice? No. Would I do it? No. Will it have major SEO implications in 2012? Probably not.

I've seen instances where an H1 was used badly, but not in a deliberately spammy or even irrelevant way. Developers often treat tags as much more interchangeable than they should.

[AWCthreads]

Nobody said it would tank a site nor was it asked if it would tank a site. Until the H1 goes by way of meta keywords, the use of it will have some relevance and in my opinion should be used properly.

Of 200 plus algorithm elements, there are undoubtedly plenty of others that are "not a big deal" but that doesn't mean we shouldn't use them correctly.

Whew, there sure has been a lot of time spent on something that's "not a big deal."

[EGOL]

No, Google just beat the value out of the H1 to the point its on life support..

I agree.  That's why having 18 of them on one of your pages probably isn't going to tank your site.

I am not advocating more than one H1 tag... just sayin' that I don't think that this is a big deal.

[McTaggart]

I agree. I've been in touch about the developer's work now. It's simply not good practice, yet. I've heard that Bing is more definite in its advice on H1 than Google.

[AWCthreads]

No, Google just beat the value out of the H1 to the point its on life support.

Sorry Egol, but if the innocents had no regard for SEO they wouldn't be putting a tag on it.

[EGOL]

Keep in mind that some people innocently use

tags for formatting text.  These folks are building websites because they have a message to share without any regard to SEO.  And some of these websites pull an enormous amount of traffic because they are built by content area experts who write with enthusiasm and verve.

I don't think that google is pulling out a stick to beat these people.

[AWCthreads]

Hi Luke,

As you can tell, it touched a nerve. I was looking for the moz link to a thread regarding this same issue and Alan (one of the Gurus) said multiple H1's can affect engines differently and if I remember correctly he made reference to a negative response from Bing.

Until H1's achieve the lofty status of meta keywords, I will continue to treat them with some importance and approach them with best practice.

I'll listen for the rumbling coming from your direction.

Good luck.

[McTaggart]

Thanks for feedback AWCthreads - tis a good question - ho hum - he's just not using them right. I've had this problem with people putting in hidden tags too. They're just not taking Google, etc., into account. Almost screamed as I counted through them yesterday hee hee.

[McTaggart]

Thanks Jennifer. Yup, doing all that too. I'm paying him on contract and part of the prob is if he's using H1s so much it could end up in a lot of expensive re-programming. I'm gonna stamp my feet I think. I often wonder whether anyone's tested the impact of such heavy use of H1s. We need an SEO Moz testing lab ;-).

Thanks for your input too AWCthreads Some good points there...

[AWCthreads]

Hi Jennifer, If you're going to weigh in, you've got to bring more substance than a regurgitation of Rand's posts on the value of H1 and how SEO time is best spent. When my staff runs an SEOmoz on page optimization report and gets flagged for having 2 H1's on the page (which happened several times today), I didn't say, "Worrying about the H1's on the page is not that big of a deal." Nor did I say, "Make sure the site is crawlable and all those other high priority things." I described a bit of history of the H1, its purpose and best practice considering its value in optimization which is to say 1 is best, 2 is acceptable and more than 2 is not necessary nor is is best practice. I also added that if it wasn't of some importance, Rand certainly wouldn't have it as an element in his research tools. Having 18 H1's on a page doesn't seem excessive. It is what it is, which is asinine. That rumbling coming from down the hall is not thunder from above, but me having a visit with a developer and anyone else who thinks 18 H1's is acceptable or seemingly excessive.

[jennita]

18 H1s definitely seems excessive, however in the grand scheme of things this would be a much lesser priority in my book than many other things. I mean if this is the biggest problem, then you're doing quite well. If you're wondering if the developer is doing the right things overall, that might be a different question. I just don't think that worrying about the H1s on the page is that big of a deal. I'd make sure the site is crawlable and all those other high priority things before I spent too much time on this.

[AWCthreads]

I was doing real well until I read this: "Ive noticed the developer's used about 18 per page" Multiple H1's are one thing, but excessive, spammy, abusive, irrelevant H1's are another.

Why in the world is he even bothering with an H1 tag if he's got 18 of them? Ask him, "What are you telling the bots with your H1's - 18 different things or the same thing 18 different times?" No wonder the value of the tag has declined so much since its inception. That volume of H1's is what Cutt's is referring to in his 2009 video.

Our CMS site auto-generates a header H1 tag when enabling optimization for mCommerce. So, when I put an H1 on the page for categories and products, the page has multiple H1's. I'd like to have one but will live with 2.

[AdoptionHelp]

That definitely sounds like too many H1 tags.

On my pages I have two: one for the site name and the second for the page title. The site name H1 is in my

<header>section, while the other is in mysection. I wouldn't advice using more than 1 per section.</header>

[McTaggart]

Thanks David, Ryan, EGOL, Nakul - really useful feedback

I think I'm erring on the side of caution really, quite simply because any risk is too much risk. I'll read up on HTML5 some more Ryan as it sounds like it's changing thing a great deal. I've noticed the developer's used about 18 per page, for all headings. which seems quite strange, and possibly incorrect even in HTML5. I mean, blog posts headings to tweet headings to... just about every heading.

[NakulGoyal]

I would look at the pages and ask myself the question: Does this page really have more then 1 "Primary" heading ? Can you do 1 primary heading and then sub-headings ? If all such options are exhausted and the only way to address the structure and layout of the page is by having multiple H1 Tags...do it. But I would do it as a last resort or when it's absolutely necessary and it makes sense from a user perspective.

[EGOL]

I have multiple H1 tags on some of my pages and don't see any problem.  Just telling my observations.

If this is your site and you have concerns about multiple H1s....   maybe the developer needs to know that he is being paid by the hour and you are being paid on the basis of results.  So if he wants any more hours he better not be  messing with your results.

[AdoptionHelp]

I had a conversation about this very topic recently, here is the advice I got:

Headings get totally different treatment in HTML5, we have to throw away everything we knew about this from HTML4/XHTML.

In earlier versions of HTML we only had headings (h1 - h6), there are no other sectioning elements at all. That is why we had to be very careful about our usage of the h1 tag, and there was always controversy regarding it usage.

In HTML5 the sectioning is much more powerful. We have a whole bunch of new elements for sectioning and the algorithm used to generate the outline is far more complex, and flexible. In short, it no longer matters how many h1 tags we have on a page.

We must still adhere to a structured approach and be careful to generate the right outline (one that reflects the proper structure of the document), and this is what this theme does.

To conclude and clarify, in HTML5 it doesn't matter if there is multiple h1 tags on a page, what matters is how they are used in conjunction with the other sectioning elements, and that the outline produced represents the correct structure of the document.

[DavidKonigsberg]

Best practices is to only use 1 h1 tag per page. You can see a video from mat cutts here mentioning you can have more if done correctly - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM