Competitor spamming and winning

[wattlebristol]

Using Google UK search for web design bristol the** #1 and #2 **spot are populated by companies that are ranked with footer links, directory spam, suspect links and other tactics. The #2 spot is even using cloaked anchor text in most of his footer links. The rest of the first page do not fair much better, it is generally a bit of a mess!

The problem is you guys are going to tell me that they will lose in the end, that I should ignore it and carry on, but the problem is these sites have been there for years, those links and those tactics are standing the test of time and in a competitive B2B niche it is hard work to push forward with quality content and valuable information when people can just spam and cloak year after year and outrank you...

I know for a fact that if you search for SEO Bristol that several of the top five guys are using private blog networks, not even very clearly ones at that...seriously, how can we all sit here with a straight face adviding people that content is king while it clearly is not!

That became more of a rant than I intended it to

[Martin_S]

What are some of the black hat things you guys would do if you were to set up an independent site that's completely separate of your main one? Some of the things aside from those mentioned above that seem to be working for competitors?

[gazzerman1]

Penguin will be running in less than 2 weeks according to John Mueller at Google. Will be interesting to see who get hit by that.

So many businesses are in your same situation and I don't know of any business that does not own multiple websites now. Just to be safe in case one gets hit by Penguin or Panda or another animal. With the whole if you cant beat them join them, I hear you on that. But don't do it for your main site, do it with another one and get a different phone number for it. Act as a consultant on their for your business. This way when the $%^& hits the fan your main company is not affected. As many have said before its risk tolerance.

[BruceA]

Good post Patrick

Your right, Google is not here to make us popular, that is our job.  Google has to protect its own postion as No1 search engine, by delivering top quality content first time to the user.

I remember a not that many few years ago starting to get really hacked off with generic search queries delivering porn, meds, directories, warez sites and other useless returns, hit a link and have pop ups galore to try and close before the next one popped open.  What a vastly different experience Google searches are now, of course with Browsers getting better too.  The flip side is that we have to work harder to make our own sites visible to the rank highly.

One other thing we noticed a week ago, was that another competitor who was the bain of our lives, has delisted the brand we were competing with them for.  That said, most who where on the scene a few years ago have also disapeared too.

Without doubt, penguin, panda etc will level again the playing field as Google has to remain the browser of choice for Google to remain at the top position.

(Edit forgot Bruce )

[Patrick_G]

wattlebristol,

I had the same epiphany you're having here.

It used to be much, much worse though. Over time the pendulum has increasingly swayed toward the white hat, or at least grey hat side. A site like copyblogger.com ranks at the top for every term they care about, because ever since the very beginning they've preached and lived by creating good content. And they have no fear of getting knocked off their pedestal.

But that's not to say other techniques don't still work. And in some cases they obviously are more effective than "create great content."

One rule of thumb I live by is that Google does not live to make your website popular. It wants to reward content that is already popular in real life. Kingof5 however, makes a strong point that it's not about white or grey, it's about risk tolerance. Do what you feel comfortable believing Google will never penalize you for based on what you are seeing. And be ready to live with the results.

[BruceA]

There is another thread currently running here about PPC.

What is interersting is that some Mozzers are reporting sites are getting only 10% organic traffic.

We are all in the same search for the elixir of SEO. We too are baffled by two competitors getting high ranks, but as we mentioned on another post, we also know we sell more than they do for the competing brand.

So it is not always true that those who appear to be winning actually are.

Bruce

[Martin_S]

Some years ago I went for a job interview at a leading London content provider/online marketing agency. The conversation turned to how I'd learnt about SEO etc, I mentioned the sites/blogs I read regularly and the guy doing the interviewing, who was in quite a senior position, reckoned that a certain, highly-regarded SEO 'authority' site purposefully disseminated nonsense now and again to throw people off the scent. I have read everything SEO-related since then with a handful of salt.

[wattlebristol]

I think what everybody is saying here is that they can see the same things, and that in reality the answer is to take a calculated risk knowing that the worst case scenario is a clean up task, but...the bit that has me chewing my arm is the fact that this advice is the exact opposite of almost every mainstream sites advice (including everything on this site). What I have yet to find is a single honest guide, because the fact is most of them are guides that tell you how to rank a site in the world of fairy dust and magic, but in the real world, it is very rare that this is ever going to work.

[Kingof5]

If your competitors are ranking with those tactics and have been for years, then try those tactics!

There is no white hat or black hat in SEO. There is only risk tolerance. Think of it like investing. Decide how much you're willing to risk, then make those bets.

Regardless of how much the sheep say "create good content, the rest will take care of itself", it's very misleading. Links are the most important factor for ranking well. If you want to beat these guys at their own game, you have to play their game.

[Martin_S]

How the black-on-black linking in the footer is working for this bunch is incredible - http://www.websitedesign-bristol.co.uk/

I suppose now that the legitimate tactics aren't working for you (and others, like me), you'll have to fork out more on Google's AdWords service.

[wattlebristol]

By the way guys the problem here isn't that it is one or two bad apples, it is all of them, every single page in the top ten, and more beyond that first page. There is a lot of real genuine content simply not ranking because of the sheer weight of spam tactics, it is not an isolated instance, and not just related to just this one keyword. I can show you the same thing on keyword after keyword.

The real frustration here is that I provide a genuine service, and have genuine real content that I work hard to produce, I gain natural links now and then and do rank - but these guys generate more revenue than me because they spam...why should I not just follow suit?

[wattlebristol]

Take a look at this site http://www.bafhs.org.uk/ in the footer - do you see the image for the developer of the site in the bottom right? Now view source, it is a link with exact match anchor text for the keyword hidden with an image.

[Martin_S]

I like your frankness and feel your pain.

Question: how do you determine 'cloaked' links?

[gazzerman1]

As I said in my reply Google is aware of most of these things and simply ignores them, as in it gives them no benefit. Chances are they get their benefits from some other ranking factors.

It is also possible however that some things are working for them and getting away with them.

I have the same issues in my industry, the site ranking #1 simply should not be there, not only that but we get a lot of their unhappy customers after they have used their service only a short while.

There are many Google hangouts where I have discussed this with the Google team.

My advice don't copy them unless you want to get a penalty. Think how you can take them on with white hat, it is very very possible.

[wattlebristol]

But...this makes a mockery of everything does it not? That one single search result "web design Bristol" on Google UK clearly demonstrates that footer links, directory spam, cloaked anchor text and other tactics can and do get you ranked. Genuine real valuable content is not able to outrank those spam sites...the evidence is there! It is plain to see. If that is the case, then is it not time to just accept that in some niches the principles discussed on this site are hogwash and you need to fight fire with fire?

[gazzerman1]

I have spoken to John Mueller at Google almost once a month on this issue. He assures me that the sites in my niche are not getting benefits on the poor stuff but on other good stuff. If they remove all the listings that are bad there would be no serps left and the results would be poor for the user. Sometimes there is a limit to what Google will punish based on what is also best for the searcher. John says those tactics bad links etc.. are simply being ignored but not punished.

It drives me up the wall all the time and I hate it but there is little that can be done apart from focus on how you could do more clever outreach to gain quality social shares and links.

You can always report them for on site black hat stuff.

[Patrick_G]

Hello frustrated wattlebristol,

I know, this kind of stuff annoys the heck out of me.

I even wrote a long post about basically the same issue, here in the U.S.

It was also dealing with design, but this guy created a network of simple landing pages to pull off the same sort of trick, but in cities all over the country.

http://www.patrickgarmoe.com/fooling-google/

I do think bit-by-bit Google is eliminating this sort of obvious flagrant disobedience of the rules, but it sure is frustrating for those of us trying to follow the rules.

[wattlebristol]

Bristol is my home city Web design bristol, Bristol web design, web designer bristol, all have the same issue.  I am also not currently targeting that keyword due to the state of the first page results, it is just an example of a keyword that I refuse to invest in because spammers are winning.

I assume you can see exactly what I am saying? I can demonstrate the same in almost every vertical I target, I mainly work in the B2B space and this is SO common. Keep in mind this is not one competitor, that search phrase is at least the top 20 results all responsible for spam tactics, look at the inbound link profiles!

[BruceA]

Hi Wattlebristol

Really interesting post and one that gets us all frazzled.

Web Design Bristol.  Really interesting search phrase.  I cannot think when I would have put this phrase into a search engine looking for Website Designers. I note you only have one match for this phrase on you homepage.

Can we recommend that you do some deeper research into what real customers are actually searching for when looking for a company to create our website.

When too close to the coal face, we cannot see the wood for the trees, to mix metaphors.

Who would really in reality would search for this phrase.  Step way way back and put yourselves in the shoes of a real business looking to help building a webste...If we where looking for a company to BUILD our website, this is perhaps not the first words to trip of our tongues. A few might be....

Website companies, Website building companies, Ecommerce Websites, we need a new website, companies who build websites etc

I think we also had the same problem a while ago with a really annoying competitor, who outranked us on one keyword, but having had some feedback from their main supplier, we realised that in fact we outperformed them on gross sales.

Not perhaps the ideal answer, but one we think is worth responding with

Bruce

[wattlebristol]

Sorry guys it is the #3 spot with the cloaked mass footer links