Is there a really good place to find high end, cutting edge web developers online.

[RobertFisher]

My issue is that I know there are a lot of web developers in the world and all of them are great just like all the great SEO's in the world. Does anyone know of a great place to find really top talent that is the kind where the people are constantly stretching and trying new things, etc. 
Is there a web dev board the better ones are on, etc. Any luck in other areas?

We have a position available, but will not fill it with anyone average or above average. I really would love to know what boards, forums, etc. I can find them on, but every search lists 50 boards and, the is not my everyday world. I just do not know which are the ones that will put me in front of the best in the world.

Any help is appreciated.

Robert

[EGOL]

If you ask my staff, they will tell you that we redo lots of work every month.  

That sounds like it wastes lots of money and employee time, but in the long run I am confident that we are making more money because we learned something from our bad guesses.

[Raydon]

**If my decision is bad then they can gloat when I return to pay them to redo it their way. **

this genuinely made me laugh! hey but at least you do this in the end if you do find yourself in the wrong! There are those (bosses and worse yet, clients) who amazingly won't admit mistakes or pay for rework, and somehow twist the situation and put the blame squarely on the person (developer) who HAD to do it their wrong way, you know, because "professionals" should know better and advise them in advance... on those occasional times that is. And then somehow as that idea backfires, the dev/design/seo rework is unpaid or underpaid with lots of unnecessary commentary... believe me its a dog world out here.

[EGOL]

...quite a few of such talents will be extremely control freaks... just what I have dealt with, they are more like lone wolves than team players...

Just jumping in here because this statement resonated with me.

I have tried to get good work done with top-rated people and have found that they have a mind of their own.   Really frustrating.  It is my website vs their values.

A trusted advisor told me ... "You are spending so much time and energy fighting this....   Just make your design very simple and something that you can do for yourself.  That will be so much easier than pulling teeth."

So, since I don't have clients with expectations.  I set my own and am back to whistling while I work.  My site looks like a newspaper and for my niche that is perfect.

At my office employees know that they are paid by the hour and that I am paid on the overall performance of the business.  So they willingly accept my decisions (even though they might say "you try that and decide if my way was right" -- and I want to hear that from them.  Sometimes they ARE right.).

When I have tried to work with designers I can't get them into the mindset that I am the one with all of the skin in the game.  So if they disagree with me they should do it my way and see me enjoy or suffer on my decision.   If my decision is bad then they can gloat when I return to pay them to redo it their way.

[Raydon]

I knew one of the TOTALLY clueless about SEO "devs" in Houston who was working alongside us with one of our clients... he was on retainer with few clients and he ran his own life and business like that for years... he WAS CLUELESS about anything SEO, we literally had to teach him... he is now working for a giant oil company for something to the tune of 150K as just one of the lead developers... said bye to all his clients and removed himself for good.

Just saying, like some other points made here, he was never actively looking for jobs, he always got referrals and pretty much job and project offers without seeking them aside from chit chats with his own league network of devs, and he refused most, until he hit the secure jackpot with benefits and everything. didn't even have to move and hasn't looked back!

btw im down for coffee [if I find the time man, I often miss my morning one as it is haha], and i do wish you success in finding who you are looking for sincerely, but generally that is one heck of an uphill battle, and I would suggest you do whatever you can with regards to attracting the talent, have you tried reaching out to other top tier companies for outsourcing certain projects to them? That's another way to go as opposed to hiring someone, case by case, contract type deals. IMHO this kind of talent should be found by the seeker, it often wont find u by chance as it wont be looking for jobs per their experience (they very often refuse more clients/jobs too, believe me we have had this very situation for ecommerce SEO clients... and if it sounds like a time consuming thing, they will probably refuse. that is just my experience, albeit very local and very limited in scope of time. Also, quite a few of such talents will be extremely control freaks... just what I have dealt with, they are more like lone wolves than team players as well. hence, even lower chances of success. Don't want to sound pessimistic, but this is what I have encountered with the few that I know.

also one last tip: If I were you, I would definitely hit up all local colleges and universities (even UT out there in Austin and Dallas) for your job offer and particular position/needs, sometimes you will be surprised at the brilliant talent and extremely fast learners you can find via those venues (contact their Career Development centers) at an amazingly low cost... with a little training and insight from your experience, this combo can do very very well. I can attest to this when it comes to designers, but def haven't tried it for developers. maybe worth a try. within a couple to few months, you could have created a major dev monster for your company

Good luck!

[RobertFisher]

Daniel,

We will agree to disagree on the "most of your top prospects won't be in that category." I believe anyone worth their salt will do quite a bit of checking something out before they go down the road of applying or inquiring. 
And, again, the post that Omid referred to was on our site and not an outside posting. I have agreed now three or four times it needs to be changed.

Thanks to each for the input though. One thing is for sure, it made me look a bit deeper at what we had posted re positions on the site. Thanks to Omid for that!

Best to all,

Robert

[RobertFisher]

Felipe

Please back up a second and understand, we just started the process. I was looking outside the box with this post. I am not sure re "being mean." I was truly curious as to how you saw what was posted as "Comic." Remember, those were your words, not mine.

I do appreciate the point of view each brought and I stated it needed to be rewritten. You followed that with your comments and my belief is that when Omid made the statement the way he did (where it appeared that every sentence was a requirement in his post) everyone jumped on that. I was really trying to get to "where" to look. Please understand, over the last two years, we have hired good developers. The post on the site was actually put there some time ago and, frankly, I do not recall having seen it. (We handle a large number of sites and there is much I do not see in my role.) And, again, I had already said it needed to be rewritten.

Thanks again for your comments,

Robert

[DanielFreedman]

Of course,  it's reasonable to expect a skilled professional who is actively seeking work to spend some time on the company website learning about company culture.

But most of your top prospects won't be in that category. They already have good  jobs. If they hear about you opening at all, it will be from a seeing the posting elsewhere. As written, the description will discourage them from even clicking through to your site.

Please see this Moz job posting for an example of a well written developer posting. It stands on its own, but also includes links to specific places on the site. So it works equally well on site and offsite,

[Felip3]

Roger, you are trying to hire above average developer and you are not finding, so you must be doing something wrong. Right?

We are trying to help you, giving you suggestions, we already told you to make the job description shorter removing "having an understanding of", we told you about the importance of the company culture to attract great developers, we told you to check the developer github and blog and many other things...

i do not understand why instead of try some of the suggestions out, you are trying to prove (sometimes even being mean with who tried help you) that all  suggestions are not valid and all that you are doing so far is already great and you dont need to improve anything.

Maybe all that you need to do to find the developer you need is to be a little bit more humble.

[RobertFisher]

I think the core of what you say here in the beginning is valid Omid, which is why I gave it a good answer. Unfortunately, I think when you say "all of these things" everyone drew the conclusion each was a requirement as opposed to reading what was actually written.  While some are requirements, this was not a list of requirements.

Frankly, I have been at this a long time, have been in Houston a long time, and do not know quite a few brilliant developers. Yes, I know some good ones and have met a ton who claim to be developers, etc. So, we really should have a coffee sometime - I mean that sincerely.

Best,

Robert

[RobertFisher]

I am curious, which part is comic (sic)?

Also, with so much of it you are each pointing out talking about the company and it's culture; do you think, given that this was on our company site, even a reasonably skilled to above average developer would look through the site, read some of the posts, etc. and possibly be able to reach a conclusion about the company?

I am not saying that all you say lacks merit; but given that description was written by a developer, the site is replete with many points of view, and that many of the posts are from developers who have an understanding of SEO, video editing, writing, structured markup, multiple CMS platforms, etc., do you not think they would be able to have a very clear idea of the company culture? If they did not go through the site, look at some of the client sites, etc., would you think they lacked the ability to investigate the subjects they might deal with?

Also, I do believe you may have missed that 30 to 40% of the items there are "have an understanding of" as opposed to items that are requirements.

Just curious,

Thanks,

[Felip3]

I agree with everything Daniel said. I would like to add that a brilliant developer knows that they are great and they know they can pick for who they work for, so when they see a job description like yours; 1 - Sounds super comic. 2 - They will run because sounds like you want to abuse them. (i am not saying you want I am just telling you what a developer will think).

If You want find an amazing developer you need to find a developer that;1 - Blog about his stuff, 2 Have an active github account with great projects, 3 - It's involve with open source.

When you find this developer you have to understand that money is "out of table" for them. They are already making very good money.  Enough to them not worry about money anymore that's why when they leave their work they keep "working" for "free" in open source projects because coding is what they love....    You have to offer them more than high salary, they want a great work environment, they want to feel they will be building something that will "change the world"... they DO NOT want to be micro manage and yes they expect to be very well paid too.

[DanielFreedman]

Thanks for the even-tempered and genuinely curious response!

Oddly enough, I think we are all saying the same thing...but in different ways: excellence is paramount and everyone needs team players with a broad general understanding of the big picture.

So this kinda reminds me of a B movie scene where the bad guy says to the tied up hero: "We are not so different -- you and I. NYAH-HA-HA"

Like you, I am not a developer. I started off as a TV writer, producer, and director before moving online in the late 90's. Along the way, I have held executive and editorial posts at places like PBS and The Environmental Defence Fund where I managed teams of developers, among others.

So I think I know how developers think. Some of my best...(oh, never mind.)

A developer would look at your job post and leap to the  conclusion that your company would be a bad place to work. He would think "the bosses" are clueless about development, his skills wouldn't  be respected, and he should take his talent elsewhere.

Think of it as "reverse hiring." You have to sell your company if you want really top notch talent.

Instead, your job post just throws in a whole bunch of stuff. It's almost comical....at least to a developer. They would conclude the company is run by idiots.

A better approach would be to:

• focus on just a few skills

• talk a lot about your company and its culture

-show how the devloper's skills would be respected and how they would fit into the bigger picture

After all, most top notch developers can master new skills quickly. But too many companies still screen by ticking things off checklists. It's the wrong approach. Making sure there is a good cultural fit is much more important.

[RobertFisher]

All,

Sorry, but when there is a response to an answer I leave, I get an email, but not to a question. I will check that out.

Omid and Daniel,

I had to go back and read what I had written as I was surprised by "You are asking too much." The only qualifiers I put were: "Does anyone know of a great place to find really top talent that is the kind where the people are constantly stretching and trying new things, etc.," and "We have a position available, but will not fill it with anyone average or above average."

Then I saw the link and realized that you were looking at the post on our site. Within that we are saying "Have an understanding of" for the SEO components, server side, etc. To be excellent, I believe it is necessary to have a broader focus than just our single profession. I am not a developer, but I do understand coding at an elementary level, I understand server side, I am a writer, an SEO, etc. and I have the ability to create conceptually for video, radio, TV, etc. I also possess skills around media buying, etc. But I am in no way a developer, director, SEO, PPC buyer, etc.

So, from this I draw it needs to be better written, and I will do so. Thanks.

Also, Omid, two things I would have an interest in are knowing more about your criteria for "brilliant developers" and, if we agree on that, I would love to know when you could have a cup of coffee or lunch - my treat! Best to each of you.

Thanks

Best

[DanielFreedman]

I agree that this job posting is unlikely to attract top applicants.

They will likely conclude it's a screwed up company they wouldn't want to work for.

You are asking for too much.

I agree with the suggestion of more focus.

[Raydon]

You want Gold, you must get your hands dirty.

Track one of these guys down http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/30/tech/web/first-website-cern/index.html

What they are involved with right now, imho is an utter waste of their precious and otherwise productive time and talent... That is like NASA getting its best people to do of all things, a rebuild of Shuttle in a decade or two...

EDIT:

Also, if you are asking all of these things from your "web developer", I would say, you are asking WAAAYYY too much from them. I personally know quite a few brilliant ones right here in Houston who are all the way booked in their professional time, and I would bet you a drink that not a single one of them would fit the criteria of your massive demands fully! It's almost impractical to ask for an experienced, well established developer who is also amazingly good at technical, local, and on-site SEO AND PPC, and be a good content writer too. not to mention the creative part of design which many "developers" do not really come up with themselves and collaborate with designers in their firms or networks to do. Most of them will meet a few criteria points but not all of those very diverse roles!

I am just saying, you could increase the chances of success here by dividing the roles a bit.

you may also want to mention the rewards and pay as well. there is all of this and no mention of what is in it for them. Maybe, just maybe, this alone can help attract more leads. You know, high almighty developers you are looking for do not often go job hunting... quite the opposite they are looking to offload workload to someone else DESPITE the pay, that is just my experience with almost every well-established developer I have dealt with locally.

[Felip3]

Robert,

Have you tried Authentic Jobs?

Felipe