Honest thoughts needed about link building / removal.

[Coraltoes77]

I have a small online business that has suffered through Google updates over the past year.  Turns out that the links built by a previous SEO were harmful - yes, it's the usual story, I know.

I've been in touch with an SEO about link removal/link building and have had a proposal.  It's not cheap and I would need to dig deep, but it'll certainly be worth it if things work out.  If it doesn't, it'll probably become impossible to continue the business. Personally speaking, it's a sorry situation.

For link removal, the SEO's proposing to contact the webmasters followed by disavowing, if needed. There's 15k links, but I think a high percentage of these are from industry blogs that I sponsor that have site wide links.

Have you heard many success stories about outsourced link removal?

For link building, they will be targeting industry websites and blogs.  The thing is, I know most of the industry bloggers anyway, and can probably reach out to them myself, if I can develop the right high quality content that they will want to feature.  Call me a cynic, but I'm not sure how the SEO can do this.  The quality of content on these blogs is extremely high as it's a very creative/visual industry that I'm involved in.  I'm just not sure how much scope there is for a third party (with no knowledge of the industry) to do this effectively.  That said, there's blogs that aren't directly related to my niche, and I suppose there's possible opportunity there.  Maybe??!

If the link removal is a good idea, am I better off trying to build links myself and combine that with the link removal service?

[Coraltoes77]

Wow, Dr Pete replied to my question! Thank you - and, actually, thanks to everyone who took the time to post.

UPDATE...

Since my last posts, I have actually moved forward a little. I did have an audit undertaken by someone that specialises in traffic drops. It transpires that it's not very clear cut - definitely not entirely a clear link-based penalty situation - and the indications are that it's probably Panda with a touch of Penguin. Upshot is, I'm having the site redesigned to minimise duplicate/thin content issues (and generally improve the user experience) and I have engaged someone to do the link removal outreach/disavow. Still early days, but now I have some kind of game plan, I feel a little more optimistic.

TBH, I'm still a little wary about the link removal/disavowal process, but we'll see... I had such varying quotes for this work, it's crazy.

And, still need to crystallise in my mind how I'm going to earn new links.

[Dr-Pete]

Some of the risks of using the disavow tool (especially the more conspiratorial ones) are overblown, IMO. There are two main risks:

(1) You might disavow the wrong links or links that are actually helping you. Considering that you've already requested removal and decided to get rid of these links one way or another, this is a bit of a moot point.

(2) It might not work. The reality is that Google might not honor the disavow if you haven't shown progress in link removal, disavowal may not help if the problem wasn't what you thought it was, and/or disavowal may not help if you don't get the problem links.

I think (2) is where things get tricky. If you disavow a ton of low-quality links, but it turns out that Google really was targeting just a handful of paid links, then the disavowal may do nothing (that's just an example).

I'm concerned from your comments that this doesn't sound like a clear link-based penalty situation, and so you may end up spending a lot of money to solve the wrong problem and take a hatchet to your links in the process. I think you'd be better off putting some cash toward a second opinion than paying someone to send emails and submit a disavow (both of which take time but you can pretty easily do yourself).

[GregB123]

Hi again Coral. There is a communication gap happening hear around a few certain words. Just fixing that will help you a lot in moving forward. Here it is...

Panda is not the same as Penguin......Panda is not the same as Penguin.....

Panda is a manual action, where you get de-indexed, get a notice, and have to do the whole terrible link removal and re-consideration request nightmare. You do not have this problem. So forget all about massive link removals and re-consideration requests.

From what you describe, you have a Penguin problem. That's just Google's programming noticing some weirdness in your link profile and either not counting the funky links or giving you a slap, a penalty, relating to those funky links (as in too high a % of a certain anchor text = a slap for your ranking for that anchor text keyword).

There are no re-consideration requests accepted for a Penguin penalty. All you can do is fix the links. And there are just a few ways to do that. Here are the ones I know of:

1. if the page the funky backlinks all point to is a sub-page, and there are few good links pointing to it, you can just abandon that original page (make it a 404) and create a new page to replace it. This rarely works because usually the funky links are pointing to the homepage and you can't abandon that.

2. get the links removed. If they come from a site you have some control or influence over, this is nice. But usually they are junk automated sites and there is almost zero chance of having the links removed

3. Disavow the domains that the funky links are coming from. Disavowing domains is usually better that individual URLs. Especially to get rid of sitewide links. You can use it to thin out your number of links using the exact anchor text you are getting slapped for. And to get rid of links from nasty toxic malware and porn sites.

Google gave us the Disavow option for this purpose. It can be used wrong, but most tools can. A good SEO group can check out your history and link profile and tell where the problem lies. I would suggest that it is not critical that the SEO company be UK based, but it is critical that they be good and that they are willing to work with small businesses affordably. It does matter that they speak english, so UK, Canada, US, New Zealand, or Australia are all fine.

[Coraltoes77]

Thanks Greg, I've just been mulling everything over before responding and posting further.

Your last post gives me a glimmer of hope. Congratulations on recovering the site, you must have been seriously pleased that it paid off.  I must admit, though, that everything else that I have read on Moz and elsewhere suggests that I should do the whole emailing (probably several rounds), documenting and then disavow thing.  Do you have any links that you can possibly share, please?  Just want to ensure that I'm doing the right thing, before embarking on it.

As a general update, since my last post, I have:

• Scrutinised traffic trends in Google Analytics against Penguin/Panda update dates. There really aren't any sudden drops that I can pinpoint, but more continual erosion over time.  Like your situation, I have also seen rankings plummet for certain keywords only.   Due to over use on exact match in anchor text, undoubtedly. But, these keywords didn't necessarily yield high search volume, so hard to see trends with these too.

• **Ran a Link Detox report. ** This shows -

  • 78 toxic links (6.6%)
  • 759 suspicious links (64%)
  • 347 healthy links (29.3%)

• Had a quote for link removal from a different SEO - unsure whether to outsource this or do it myself.  The quote seems reasonable (and a lot cheaper than the original SEO's quote).

• Arranged a telephone call with an industry PR company, who can maybe assist with gaining earned links.

So, moving forward, I'll look to get a quote for a site audit.  (Thanks for your links, I'm UK based though so probably would be best to use someone in the same country).

Any other options to consider?  Should I do the link removal myself (using Link Detox and rmoov) or outsource it to someone who's done it before (not sure how successfully though)?

[GregB123]

I've used it with no bad effects, and probably good results.

I have (or had) a keyword on one of my sites with very over-optimized anchor text links. That keyword suddenly dropped from page 1 to page 7. Just that one keyword, which points to a algorithmic (Penguin) penalty. So I analyzed my link profile (not any easy job) and did a Disavow listing enough domains containing those anchor text links to re-balance my link profile somewhat. That's all I did. No reconsideration request, no removal of links. After about 6 or 8 weeks, that keyword suddenly popped back from page 7 to page 3. Page 3 still sucks, but at least that makes it easier to do the work to scramble back to page 1.

Was it because of the Disavow? I don't know for sure, but it sure doesn't look like it hurt anything.

This stuff is often a bit vague and voodoo like, which is why it helps to get a site review from a professional. Check your PM's as I sent you a reply to your reply.

[Coraltoes77]

I've spent the last few hours just reading up on disavowing. (This by Marie Haynes, who contributes on MOZ, has some eye-opening articles on it).

Based on this, I think it might be just too risky to use the disavow tool. I haven't read any success stories with using the tool, and think it could even harm my site.

[Coraltoes77]

Thanks, I have read through the information on the link that you sent over. Sounds fairly simple on the face of it, although I was under the impression that you had to demonstrate that you had made the effort to have the links removed prior to going down the disavow route. Perhaps this is no longer the case?

Re: desperate measures, I'm not quite there yet, but if I spend a whole chunk of cash (investment level, certainly, for my business) and it doesn't work, then that would probably be it really, very sadly.

[Coraltoes77]

Thank you, replied.

[ZDAdmin]

So here's what I would do: Follow Google's instruction and use their disavow those bad links.

Link Detox produces the file that Google requires to disavow links. Perhaps your old SEO sent it to you? Anyway, I would get that file, browse through it and make certain that those links are indeed bad or at least questionable, and then follow the steps in the article to remove them.

This eliminates the hassle from emailing 15k webmasters requesting they take time out of their day to remove your link. SEO Snobs may frown on such a 'baby with the bathwater' approach, but desperate times call for desperate measures and it sounds like the next steps for you if you don't take action, would be to close your business. Working from that as a worst case scenario, this is exactly what I would do.

[Coraltoes77]

It's tweaked/refreshed continually, albeit at a pretty low level.  I'm certainly not blogging every day, for example.

[Coraltoes77]

Thank you.

My last SEO actually generated some reports using link detox. He thought it was a good tool. But, he never did any link removal. (That was never his remit). He forwarded a list of links to me to action. I started to email the 'webmasters' but never got anywhere - literally nothing from a couple of hundred emails.

I should add that the first link building company went bust. I think all the links they built were perhaps on a blog network, e.g. Wordpress 'blogs' with no real person managing them. Which is a problem!

If link removal requests are going into the ether, what options do I have?

Saying the link removal requests don't work, I would go down the disavow route. If (big if) I manage to successfully disavow, is there a chance my rankings could get worse??

Sorry, I'm asking more questions now. Any further guidance much appreciated.

[GregB123]

Hi Coral. I sent you a PM (which is accessed by clicking the little human shape next to the question mark and the magnifying glass at the top of these pages)

[polarking]

How fresh is your content on your site? Fresh (good) content brings the engines back.

[ZDAdmin]

That is a really tough, but all too common story. I definitely would not start over on a new brand if that's the case. Would it possible to switch from Brand.com to brandwidgets.com? Just wondering.

Either way, before I scrap the domain or hire this high priced company, I would check these guys out: http://www.linkdetox.com/plans-pricing/. You obviously are smart enough to use Moz so I think this tool could help you disavow the bad links. It would take a while to see the results but using a tool like this to get rid of bad links would be the first step I take before you pay a kings ransom to a firm (assuming you cannot afford) or (gulp) shut down your business (<------don't do this!!).

p.s. I'm always a little skeptical when people push a product on me so for the record, I in no way benefit from the product i mentioned earlier. There are plenty of competitors who do what they do as well.

[Coraltoes77]

It's a brand (which is pretty established now) so can't really start all over.

[Coraltoes77]

Sorry if I've not been very clear. I'm not particularly concerned about industry blog links, it was more that I was just trying to convey link volume. (But not very well, admittedly).

No unnatural links warning in Google WMT.

Nor was there a sudden plummet of traffic either, as far as I can tell.

[polarking]

I would check your DA of where the links are pointing from if it is higher than your DA they are probably not the problem. If you go through WMT like EGOL suggested. If it were me I would get a second opinion and quote from another SEO or perhaps a webmaster.

[david.smith.segarra]

if you say it is as serious as your business going under if the removal of the bad links fails... wouldn't it be better to start a fresh with a new site?

Rather then spend all that money in removing those links... spend the money on a new site with a new structure and new content, or redirect the old content to the new site..

Just a thought...

Hope it all goes well for you

[EGOL]

So, do you have a message about unnatural links in webmaster tools... or do have your rankings tanked without a message - which would indicate Penguin (or a variety of other causes).

[jshiraz]

I don't think industry bloggers are your issue. If these are legitimate bloggers writing about topics in your industry then they should be great links. I don't think you want to get these removed.