Welcome to the Q&A Forum

Hi Chase,

Both Bing and Yahoo show local results for SEO companies, but not Google, unless you use the 'in' or 'near'-type searches that Linda has pointed out. In 2010, Google stopped showing both web design and SEO firms in their local results, presumably because Google determined that most of these businesses are virtual rather than local.

There is no harm in you listing your business in Google's local products provided you comply with the rules Linda has mentioned, but organic SEO is likely to be your best area of focus/effort when it comes to Google, because of their unique handling of results for companies like yours.

Hi Chase,

Very good question, and Linda has done a great job of explaining that the city centroid is no longer a heavily-weighted factor. You will get more information by performing the type of search she recommends. However, if you would still like to see where the centroid is, just search for the city in Google Maps and look where Google puts the pin. That is typically the centroid.

Hi Chase,

Both Wissam and Linda have done a great job of explaining how data in one place gets fed to many others. Do check out the link to David Mihm's graphic. It's excellent.

Hi Ralph,

Excellent question and one frequently wondered over. The trouble is that Google's Adwords Keyword Tool typically shows identical search volumes for keyword+city and city+keyword. I recommend you check out this enormous post on this topic by Linda Buquet:

http://localsearchforum.catalystemarketing.com/local-seo-ranking/849-local-keyword-research-tools-tricks.html

While I don't believe their is a simple, single answer for every case, I hope this resource will give you some new ideas on this!

My pleasure!

Hi Rachel,

So, for a multi-location local business like your medical practice, you should NOT be attempting to merge with Google+ as it is unsupported. You should simply be creating a local listing through the Google Places for Business Dashboard for each of the physical locations the company runs. Do not merge!

Hi Feuza,

I like the idea of starting your new on-site blog at feuzareis.com/blog to begin showcasing your work in SC, and if handled properly, 301 re-directing the old blog to the new one might be a good idea, but if there is any chance that the old blog might still earn you business (for instance, if you would be willing to travel to NJ for great jobs), then it may well be worth it to fix those errors and continue to maintain that blog.

Hi Feuza,

Linda has pointed to one of the best recent articles on this topic of needing to build citations while hiding the address of the business. I will add to this that your photographers are fortunate enough to be in an industry in which writing up locally-optimized descriptions of their photo shoots should be easy. Much more scope for the imagination here than if they were plumbers, right?

Whether your clients do this via an on-site blog or a library-like gallery of articles about their different shoots in different towns, there is great opportunity for content development that showcases their work in the different cities where they would love to gain visibility in the SERPs. They can write up weddings they shoot if they do that, or if they are nature photographers, they can write about the different regional and national parks, or if they do business photography, they can write about the companies they are shooting in different cities. And, remember, too, that they can geotag their images on social sharing sites like Flickr, Panoramio and Picasa. Pinterest could also be a great area for them to be active, too. Lots of opportunity here!

Hi Amber,

I have not seen any other reports of this and just did a quick search of the last month of the results for 'problems with yahoo local' and am coming up empty-handed. What kinds of problems, specifically, are you experiencing? I'm going to leave this question as open for discussion in case someone else is seeing what you are.

Hi Chase,

You've gotten some good answers here to your specific questions, so I'd like to give you some more general advice, seeing that you are just dipping your toes into the big pool of Local SEO:) I hope this will be helpful to you!

1. First, ground yourself in the basics of Local SEO. I recommend you read David Mihm's 2012 Local Search Ranking Factors report. This annual survey has been the premiere local industry publication for many years running. It points out the things that make up local rankings, and therefore, the different things you'll need to study. http://www.davidmihm.com/local-search-ranking-factors.shtml

2. Next, I recommend that you visit the Local Learning Center at GetListed.org and read through some of the tutorials there.

3. Thirdly, one of the main tasks of a Local SEO is to keep on top of updates, because they happen so frequently in Local. There are a ton of great blogs on the topic of Local SEO, and here at SEOmoz, we publish some great local pieces, but I would highly recommend that you become a regular reader of the blog of Local Search Godfather, Mike Blumenthal. blumenthals.com/blog

Hope this helps!

Hi OOMDO,

While there isn't a certain number of times that things should be repeated, yes, it is important to remember the geographic terms a page is hoping to rank for. Include your city name in the title tag, meta description tag, H1 tag, and possibly, alt tags if you have images on the page. Then, write thoroughly about the topic at hand and you will likely find that you mention the city name a few times as you write. What you don't want is copy that looks like this:

Our San Diego carpet cleaners serves customers in San Diego. We clean more carpets in San Diego than any other carpet cleaning company in San Diego. No other San Diego carpet cleaning company beats our San Diego carpet cleaning company prices.

Don't write like that! You want beautiful, engaging writing that reads really well to humans. Cover your topic thoroughly and I think you'll find that mentioning the location a few times as you write will come naturally.

Hi Bob,

You are getting some very thoughtful answers here. I thought I'd pop in as we've chatted so much about Local SEO. Thought I would add...if this client is Local, remember that he must NOT duplicate the address or phone number on these websites. In other words, if his legal business name is Bob's Appliance Repair and his main website uses his NAP, no part of it should be replicated at Bob Fixes Heaters or Bob Fixes Washing Machines. He would need to obtain completely different addresses and local area code phone numbers for the other businesses. I do not recommend getting suite numbers in a situation like this, because the services rendered are the same or similar and Google would likely catch on that something was odd.

I will also add, I have seen local businesses make an absolute mess of this concept of multi-sites or micro-sites. The end up with a bunch of neglected, thin or duplicate content sites. It would be so much better if they put their money/effort into building one really strong website to which new elements are being added on a regular basis. In my experience, local business owners who want a multi-site approach have either come across bad advice somewhere or have an excess amount of energy. If you can step in with great advice and funnel that great energy toward them building a killer on-site blog, you may be able to save them from being spread too thin and assist them in becoming an authority resource in their field.

Hi Emerald,

Michael is correct. The phenomenon which have experienced is one that has become common since the Venice update in 2012. The best way I can describe this is that your previous organic rank (typically for your homepage) has been subsumed into your new local rank. It is very uncommon these days for any business to have both an organic and local ranking on page one of Google's results, pointing to their homepage. However, also as Michael says, it is sometimes possible to get an interior page to rank organically for a second spot in the SERPs, but this really depends upon how competitive the keyword phrase you are going after is.

Hi Doug,

I think Localeze will help you remedy some of the NAP consistency issues your client has, but I would recommend that this be backed up with a manual check on your part to discover bad data. In my opinion, no service beats manual action as a way to remedy bad NAP data. It can be quite a big process. Hang in there and good luck!

Hi Doug,

I would typically think of this as an either/or situation, rather than recommending both. I've seen quite a few people asking your same question: do they need to be on UBL and Localeze, and what about Yext while we're at it? My personal preference would probably be for Localeze, but I definitely think you should check out the discussion about this topic on Phil Rozek's recent post on Localeze downgrading their previously free listings:

http://www.localvisibilitysystem.com/2013/04/17/rip-localeze-free-business-listings/

Read the whole conversation going on in the comments. I think it's a great discussion!

Hi Diana,

As Jim has said, Google has no problem with you asking for reviews, by any means except for at a shop-based review station/kiosk. However, I would advise you against doing any type of mass request via email, Facebook or any other platform. The reason for this is that Google's review filters appear to target velocity. If you get too many reviews at once, they could be filtered out and permanently lost. Because of this, many in the Local SEO community are now recommending that you ask no more than a couple of customers for reviews each week. This may prevent review loss.

Also, as Jim says, always give the customer the option to use their favorite platform. Diversity is good insurance against review loss, in that if you lose reviews on one platform, you still have them on others.

Just remember, the one review platform you must exclude from your review acquisition efforts is Yelp. They expressly forbid local business owners from requesting customer reviews in any way. Very strict, but there it is.

Hope this helps!

Hi Neoptic,

Keri asked me to stop by to take a look at your question. I believe what you are asking is how to get your homepage ranked above the local pack of listings. Is that correct? If so:

• If you are already in the local pack for a given keyword phrase, you are unlikely to also gain an organic ranking on the same page. Since the Venice update last year, it has become quite uncommon for any local business to have more than one spot on the first page of results, except in industries or geographies that are sparsely populated or poorly documented.

• If you are not in the local pack for a given keyword phrase, perhaps because you are lacking a physical location in the target city and are having to rely on organic SEO for service radius cities where you lack a physical location, then having city landing pages for each of your service cities is the typical marketing strategy. For example, an SAB (service area business) may be physically located in San Francisco, CA., but may serve San Jose, Berkeley and Oakland. This business model can pursue high local rankings for San Francisco-related searches, but must typically purse organic rankings for any other service city. He can create city landing pages to help him go after these secondary organic rankings. If this concept is new to you, let me point you to a recent article of mine that I've been told has been really helpful to many Local SEOs and local business owners:

The Nitty Gritty of City Landing Pages

• If you already know about city landing pages and are experiencing a scenario in which your SAB is already ranking organically  (not locally) on page one for a given keyword phrase but is simply ranking below rather than above the local pack of results, then your ability to influence this may be limited. Google has several different displays. In some, there are a couple of organic results above the local pack. If a business is strong enough (SEO-wise) it could appear in those couple of top organic results, or, it may find itself just below the local pack in the handful of results that appear there. Very often, what I see in the US is those top spots being occupied by giants like Yelp, but not always. I think it would be quite difficult/impossible to outrank something like Yelp, but if I saw a result in which the top couple of organic results were other direct competitors of my client, then there would be a chance that some strong organic efforts might succeed in allowing them to break in there. This would likely involve both content development and linkbuilding and possibly other things.

I hope one of the three scenarios I've described matches yours. If not, please provide a more detailed description of your scenario and goals. Thanks!

Hi Ecce,

I agree with Takeshi that further information would be helpful here.

By 'web agency', I am assuming that you mean your company is an SEO firm, web design firm or does some other type of online marketing. If so, then presumably you are talking about organic rankings rather than local ones as Google hasn't shown web design or SEO firms in their local results since 2010.

If this is correct, I am not totally clear as to the role your physical location plays in your business model and I'm assuming your client transactions are virtual. Do you publish a physical address on your website? Do any clients come to that location? Did you previously serve only Bromley-based clients? Are you now going to serve only Sevenoaks-based clients? Please, provide as much information as you can about your business model, the role your address has played, your optimization and your goals.

It is always my pleasure!

Hi Echo1,

Let me take your questions step by step for clarity here.

• You may lose some or all of your reviews, unfortunately. When you move, it's as if Google considers you to be a new business. This is an unsatisfactory approach in many people's views. My take on Google's thinking is that if Joe's Restaurant on 4th Avenue closes because it was terrible and then Joe opens a new restaurant on 23rd Street, it might be great. Google applies reviews to a physical address, not a business name. So, yes, you may lose your reviews.

• I agree with Nyagoslav's estimate.

• Do not attempt to merge your Google+ Local page with a Google+ Business page. As Google has stated, this feature is meant for brick-and-mortar single location businesses - not for SABs like yours. And, just so you know, nobody I know in the Local SEO sphere is recommending that ANY business attempt to merge, because the system is so confoundedly buggy right now. So, avoid any attempts to do this. On a positive note, Google is currently rolling out a new Google Places for Dashboard. Few people have seen it yet, but when it does roll out, you will be able to activate social features, apparently with the click of a button, even if you are an SAB. So, stay alert for news of that.

Good luck, Echo!

Hi Echo1,

The process of changing an address is the same for both a brick-and-mortar business and an SAB.

1. Change the address on the website

2. Go to the Google Places Dashboard and edit the address there. Follow these guidelines:

Verified business owner of a page, and is your business moving locations? Here's what you do.

"Edit your address in Google Places for Business or in the Google+ page admin area, whichever you are using to manage the page. This will either make a new page or edit the address on the existing page. It may take a week or two after editing your address before you see an update. At this point, you may need to go through a verification process again. Don't worry -- this is normal.

If you see a page that's still got the old address, click on Report a problem and mark that location as closed. Provide the link to the new address or information about the new location if possible. You can find more instructions on closing a location here: Remove a listing or mark a place as closed or moved - Places for business Help (http://support.google.com/places/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=154102)"3. Locate all of your citations on other sources and edit the address there to reflect the change.4. Monitor your Google+Local/Place Page to be sure the listing never reverts to the old address.And that should do it. Not surprised if there is confusion surrounding this issue. Google has changed their policy twice in the past 6 months. The guidelines I've quote above represent their most current policy. Hope this helps!

Hi OOMDO,

I'd like to clarify - does the business actually have 4 physical offices (1 in each of those cities) or does it have a single office, or maybe two offices, serving 4 cities?

If the business has 4 offices, then I think Dave's advice is quite good.

However, if the business is more of an SAB (service area business) with only one or two physical offices, then the location cities should be what is in the title tag of, say, the homepage, while the location-less service cities could be excellent candidates for city landing pages.

Hi Jonathan,

Opinions vary as to which tools are best, but I recommend you check out the tools at the following sites:

http://www.brightlocal.com

http://www.myseolabs.org/

https://www.placesscout.com/

Also, check out the tool mentioned in the thread at the Local Search Forum:

http://localsearchforum.catalystemarketing.com/local-seo-ranking/2332-super-hot-free-local-rank-checker-bonuses.html

Hope these will be some good resources for you to consider.

Hi Nikola,

The reason I'm suggesting the above tool is that I think you need to research competitors who are managing to rank for both keywords to discover if they are doing something different or better than your business is. The answer to your question may lie in this research.

If Google is providing local results for both keyword phrases and you are appearing in one and not the other, there is some reason why Google is considering your company as a relevant result for one query but not the other. This isn't something that can be diagnosed without research into your unique company and your unique competitors. Perhaps a competitor has a better optimized website, more links, different types of citations, more frequent/fresher relevant content, more reviews, an older domain than you. There is a lot to explore. Thus, my recommendation of competitive analysis.

Regarding social media, yes, this likely plays some role in your local rankings, but the extent of that role is unknown. Clearly, Google is moving more and more towards social factors (think Google+) but the weight of these factors is not really clear.

Great! I think you'll like it!

Hi Keith,

Thanks for the additional details. I'm trying to think of a business model I've worked with that matches your description, but I'm having trouble coming up with one. From what you are saying, it sounds like you have a national business with employees based in various cities and that the employees operate out of their homes and meet customer there. If that's correct, it sounds to me as if you would be able to build citations for those employees, provided they work solely for one company, and also provided that they aren't operating any other businesses out of the same address/phone, but I'm giving that advice tentatively, because I'm not exploring your unique business. If your company is considering whether a Local SEO campaign is right for you, I would recommend that you consult one-on-one with a high level Local SEO with whom you can share all the details of your company. That would be my best advice.

Hi Keith,

If a business doesn't have face-to-face transactions with its customers, whether at a physical office or at the clients' locations, then it is not eligible for local inclusion. A business that lacks in-person contact with customers needs to pursue organic rather than local rankings.

Hi Nikster,

Marcus has given a terrific reply. I'll add just one tip. I think 51 Blocks' competitive analysis tool offers great insight into why different businesses might be surpassing your own for various queries. The tool is free and I recommend you give it a whirl:

http://www.51blocks.com/online-marketing-tools/free-local-analysis/

Hi Neooptic,

Here's a recent tweet from the Local Track at PubCon:

from Google's point of view, when you move locations, you're starting a new business @marybowling #pubcon

— Greg Gifford (@GregGifford) April 24, 2013

Unfortunately, there is some truth in this. I recommend you read this thread over at the Local Search Forum, outlining Google's most current change of address policies:

http://localsearchforum.catalystemarketing.com/moving-name-changes/3138-business-moves-procedure-changes-again-just-edit.html

You may experience a fluctuation in rankings or not. You may also lose your reviews, so brace yourself for that. Changing an address or phone number can lead to some unwelcome surprises. Read up as much as you can on this topic so you are prepared to expect some fluctuations.

Good luck!

Hey Again Bob,

Happily, I was able to catch Darren almost immediately. I have his permission to quote his replies on this topic. Very fascinating stuff here, I'm sure everyone will agree!

"Citation velocity isn't an issue. If I build 100 citations today, they will "go live" on the various sites at all different rates. 10 might get posted same day, some within a week, others within a few weeks, and others with months (or even years). So, citation throttling is naturally built in to the citation building process. I don't believe Google is measuring citation velocity as a positive or negative factor, but, the links can hurt you if you get too many at once.I have seen a case where one citation submission on one site spread to listings on THOUSANDS of other domains within the same business listings network. Rankings tanked.

"It's important to make sure you're submitting to quality sources. See: http://www.whitespark.ca/blog/post/12-how-to-identify-quality-citation-sources

"I think it's only a concern if you're not careful with the quality of the sources you're submitting to. You can only cause damage if you hit a site like the one I identified (it's a very nasty negative SEO source that I don't want to reveal). Building citations at 20, 30, 50, even 100 per day is no problem in my opinion because of the natural spread of when these listings go live."

Great feedback from Darren, no? I learned something today! I always learn something new whenever I talk to Darren and I appreciate the time he took to share his take on this with me. If anyone knows citations inside and out, it's Mr. Shaw!

Hey Bob,

I think you raise an interesting point, given that many citations do contain links and velocity of linkbuilding does play a part in Organic SEO. No one is citing this as problematic, in my experience, in the Local SEO sphere, but this doesn't mean there is no chance it has any effect.  As you are using Darren's tool, why don't I give Darren a shout-out to get his expert opinion on this topic? I'll return with an update if Darren will be so good as to reply.

Hi Web Biz Ideas,

This issue has been around for some time, and honestly, there is more speculation on this than a totally clear guideline. I highly recommend that you read this thread from the Local Search Forum in its entirety, including the last comment from Google MapMaker RER, Andrew Sawyer. Rather than re-capping all of this here, I think you should read the whole thing:

http://localsearchforum.catalystemarketing.com/google-local-citations/1605-suite-vs-ste-vs-your-citation-addresses-2.html

Sincerely hope this helps!

Hi Bob,

A citation campaign is going to generate a lot more than 2-3 duplicate listings. Just a glance at GetListed.org's Local Search Eco-system shows how much data is fed, scraped, shared:

http://getlisted.org/resources/local-search-data-providers.aspx

My point being, it's just baked into the system. Think about when people use a service like Localeze and the distribution that occurs from that. I agree with you that naturalness is generally desirable, but directory inclusion isn't really a spontaneous and natural occurrence (like reviews are supposed to be). It's a planned action on the part of a business. So, I'm just not sure what natural would look like in this scenario. Know what I mean?

Appreciate your reply, Bob!

Cool. Please follow up if you get a reply, vzPRO.

Hi Bob,

That is such a good question. Honestly, I've asked myself that very question, too. What about duplicate content? I welcome the opportunity to share my thinking with you on this and hope you'll tell me if this sounds like good horse sense to you:

When you create a listing at one of the major data providers, it is going to automatically create additional listings on the sites it feeds data to. These auto-created listings will be identical in nearly every way, including the description you've provided. There is no way around this except to avoid listing your company on these major providers (which no sane person would want to avoid doing, right?)

So, the way that data is aggregated and shared, you cannot avoid what might be called duplicate content. Every local business with a citation profile has identical descriptions attached to these kinds of listings, and if there was a penalty involved, it would be affecting all of them, right? And I've never seen any indication of a penalty. Now, there's a chance I could be wrong about this, but my guess is that Google would be sophisticated enough to know that this type of duplication is baked into the way data is shared between the various indexes.

What do you think about that? I'd value your feedback. It's something I've wondered about, as I've said, but I've never taken the time to bring it up amongst peers.

Hi Patricia,

I wondered about that issues of an attempted merge. If you go to the Google and Your Business Forum (http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!forum/business) and search for 'merged', 'merging' and variants you will find a veritable mountain of threads there about issues stemming from this. The merge situation is still really buggy, and most of the best Local SEOs I know are still advising against merging Google+ Local and Google+ Business pages right now because of this.

I don't want you to get taken to the cleaners again, either. I highly recommend that you check out both the local category of the recommended companies list here at SEOmoz and also this page on GetListed.org, which is also an SEOmoz-owned company:

http://getlisted.org/resources/trustedproviders.aspx

Both lists are very trustworthy. If you need to hire a Local SEO, look there for firms you can rely upon. Good luck!

Hi Chauhan,

I'm going to leave this question open for discussion, as, unfortunately, I am not well acquainted with the state of Local SEO in India (just the US). In 2010, Google stopped showing website design and SEO firms in their local results, so if this is the case in your country, the pursuing a Google+ Local page may be of little or no value to your business. Instead, going with organic an social efforts will be important to you.

My understanding of the 500 error is that it has affected merged Google+ Local pages. See:

http://blumenthals.com/blog/2012/11/26/google-page-500-error-bug-work-around/

I honestly don't know when the 500 error issue will be resolved, but it does sound to me like your business isn't really a candidate for local inclusion.

Hey Bob,

I like VZpro's answer on this one. One area I always try to take advantage of is that some directories allow for a much longer business description than others. At the beginning of a citation campaign, I write descriptions of different lengths so that I have them at the ready for using on the different platforms. Those longer description field allow for a very robust (and optimized) description of the business, so that's something I never pass up.

Hi Cvissi,

I strongly recommend that you do not attempt to claim any client's listings into your own account and that you do not claim multiple, unrelated businesses into a single account. Each client should be in control of his listing, even if you are the Local SEO on the project. My advice is to claim each listing individually, preferably into the client's domain name email. This will prevent major future headaches for you and your clients.

Hi Patricia,

Issues like this are typically going to require more digging than a forum like ours can generally provide. In all likelihood, you are going to need to hire a qualified Local SEO to diagnose your issues. I'll do my best to jot down a few notes here, but a thorough investigation is likely warranted.

• Ranking drops of this kind often signal a penalty.

• Sometimes, bugs in Google's system can cause ranking drops.

• Sometimes, ranking drops are simply the result of being surpassed by a greater effort on the part of a competitor.

• Searching from my location in No-Cal for 'murrieta bankruptcy attorney', I am seeing your business at #3 in the organic results on the first page of Google's SERPs. I am seeing an organic result at the top, followed by a 3-pack of local results, followed by further organic results, with Ashcraft coming in 2 spots below the local results.

• Setting my location to Murrieta and doing the same search, I see identical results. So, I am not able to replicate what you are seeing with your business having been pushed to the 2nd page.

• Your employees should not be reviewing your business. You didn't mention how long ago he did this, but Google is pretty active regarding review spam these days, and if, for instance, they detected that this review was stemming from your office, that could trigger a penalty.

• Were you seeing the employee's review live on the page before it was removed? Or did it never appear at all?

• There is a chance that this other review on your Google+ Local page could be causing a problem:

"Pat is the best bankruptcy attorney in Murrieta, hands down! After speaking with many bankruptcy attorneys, Pat and her staff are definitely the most friendly and knowledegable that I have found. I cant say enough good things about dealing with Pat and I would highly recommend the Ashcraft Firm."

There is speculation that use of first names in a review can trigger suspicion. Obviously, you have no control over this.

• Have you, by any chance, attempted to merge a Google+ Business and Google+ Local page at any time prior to this issue arising? Right now, this can lead to all kinds of problems.

• When signed into your dashboard, what is the status of the listing? Active, pending, suspended, needs action?

• There's a link on your homepage titled 'Google+ Page' that is going to a 404 error page.

• There are a ton of issues going on with photos. I recommend you visit the Google Places for Business Help Forum and search for 'photos gone'. You will see hundreds of threads on this and perhaps an issue described in one of them will match what you are experiencing.

Sorry not to be able to offer more insight. To me, right now, it looks as if you are still doing quite well organically, but it sounds like you are seeing something different. Again, you are likely going to need to hire a consultant to help you with this to diagnose the issue, but I hope what I've jotted down gives you some things to consider. Good luck!

Hi Vz,

Yes, I do think this could cause problems. It seems you are not actually having to solve an issue like this, but are just curious about it. In my opinion, this is the type of issue one would either need to take up with the RERs at the Google Map Maker Forum (http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!forum/map-maker), or try to get direct help with from Google staff at the Google Data Issues phone number (http://support.google.com/places/bin/static.py?hl=en&ts=1386120&page=ts.cs). Additionally, it might be necessary to talk to whichever directories are automatically changing the city name to see if something can be done about this. Inconsistent NAP is a major issue, so resolution, if possible, would be very important.

Great! So glad to be of help.

Hi vzPro,

I want to be sure I understand your question. Are you saying that in trying to create citations for Greenacres businesses, indexes/directories are automatically changing the city name to Lake Worth? If so, it could be that Greenacres is not a recognized city name, in the eyes of these indexes/directories. This was my first thought, as I believe I've seen a similar situation reported in the Google and Your Business Forum.

However, I did a simple Google search for 'shoe store greenacres fl' and Google is showing me some local Greenacres results, but they are mixed with Lake Worth results and one West Palm Beach result, interestingly. So, Greenacres appears to exist in Google's index of cities. This begs the question: if not on Google's local product, then on which product are you experiencing this issue of the city being automatically changed, if I have correctly described what you are experiencing?

When oddities like this arise, typically the best thing to do is to get in touch with a Google Mapmaker RER to see if they can help clarify Google's view of the geography. Please, feel free to provide further details.

Hi Peter,

You should not be using a toll free number as part of your NAP. Your Local number is the  'P' in NAP. Anything else is a supplementary number. Different Local SEOs may have a different approach than mine, but when I am doing local SEO, I do not include toll free numbers in crawl-able text on the website - I put them in image text in the masthead, if required. I put the complete NAP (name-address-phone) in the footer and on the contact page, encoded in Schema markup. I list the local phone number on all local citations. If it is necessary to list a supplementary number like a toll free number, I do that in the additional phone number field offered by some of the indexes/directories. Google understands which number is local if you've put in in the primary number field and it matches what they find on your website and elsewhere. But, should you decide to put toll free numbers as though they were the primary number in some of your citations, then, yes, there is a concern that Google will not trust their data about the business.

Does this make sense, Peter? I want to be sure I'm explaining this well to you.

Hi Bob,

Good question. No, this does not matter. Consider the fact that when you conduct a citation campaign, the different indexes require different formatting in their submission forms. Differences like (111) 111-1111 and 111-111-1111 and 111.111.1111 are build into the system and, in my experience, Google has no problem in understanding these formats.

Bob,

William and Chris have both provided great insight on this. Review velocity has certainly come up as a possible trigger for filters, but so far, citation velocity has not been investigated or pointed out as an issue by anyone I know in the Local SEO community.

Does this mean it couldn't become an issue in future? I wonder about this. In the 10 years I've been working on the web, I have watched the rise and fall of directory submissions as a powerful tactic in traditional SEO. I am not sure if velocity had anything to do with that, actually, or if it was simply the Google decided that these types of links were not a great signal of relevance.

Obviously, right now, directory-type listings are the core tactic of Local SEM, and it's hard for me to imagine that changing any time soon, though Google appears to be trusting social signals more and more as relevance indicators. But as to the specifics of velocity, your guess is as good as anyone's as to whether Google will, at some point, create a filter that relates to this. We'll all have to wait and see.

Hi Peter,

Yes, it would affect your citation consistency. You should always list your primary local number first on all local listings, and be sure it is in crawl-able text on the website. I do not recommend creating any local listing with only your toll free number.

Hi Bede,

Got it. No, I have not run into this or seen it reported. Very interesting. I think that might be worth reporting to Google via their data issues phone number, though I suspect they might tell you to merge the listings...in which case, I personally wouldn't follow that advice. You could try to call them about it, though:

http://support.google.com/places/bin/static.py?hl=en&ts=1386120&page=ts.cs

Wish I had more insight on this, but I've not seen it before.

Hey Bede,

I'm so sorry I didn't see this thread earlier. It just showed up in my inbox today. I am a bit puzzled by what you are describing, and this is doubtless due to the confusion surrounding agreed-upon terminology for Google's products. To me:

1. There are no Google Place Pages anymore

2. They all became Google+ Local pages (with the new interface), though many are still being controlled via the Google Places Dashboard.

3. They are shortly about to all become Google+ Local pages being controlled via the new Google Places for Business Dashboard that Google is rolling out (and which, apparently is supposed to make the merging of local and social features easier via a simple verification action).

4. But if you don't have the Google Places for Business Dashboard yet, merging is hazardous. Who knows? It may still prove to be hazardous in the new environment as well. Too new to tell.

Do my definitions match yours? Am I missing something? Please, let me know as I am very interested in your question, Bede.